1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

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aczlan
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Location: NY, USA

1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by aczlan » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:16 am

I have a 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic/LiveDrive that I bought this fall, it had various issues (the biggest one being a shattered steering box which led to 15 gallons of fluid that was about the consistency and color of caramel yogurt in the transmission case.
The long version can be found here: https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/cas ... matic.html
The short version:
Drained that all out, put in fresh hydraulic fluid, but the 3 point didn't work. Checked the linkage and it all seemed to be working. Pulled the cover over the PTO gears, observed that the oil pipe (that is supposed to lubricate the PTO gears)
Drained the fluid again and removed the PTO gearbox, then removed the hydraulic pump and backflushed the suction tube for the pump to get rid of the last of the crud that was in it.
Set the base of the pump in a small container of oil and it wouldn't pump.
Removed the valvebody, cleaned the moving parts, tried the pump again (it worked) and put everything back together.
Started it up and its still not pumping (no 3 point movement, no change in sound when I move the lever and watch the linkage on the pump move, no fluid coming out of the lubrication pipe in the PTO gearcase).
I suspect that its air locked and not self priming. I was thinking of pressurizing the transmission case with the exhaust of a vaccum, or removing the 3 way valve (which doesn't seem to move anything when I move the valves), then hooking the vacuum to the "pressure out" from the pump to help it draw fluid in and prime itself.
Is there a better way that I am missing? Any other thoughts?

Thanks

Aaron Z

1952CROPMASTER
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by 1952CROPMASTER » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:45 am

Check to see if your 3 way valve is in the correct position, It has 4 positions 1- 2 - L & L/1 # 1 is next to your L/H Fender you should have it in the third position from the Fender (L for linkage)
On top off the PTO Housing their should be a plug with a square hole, remove this plug, when you do, you should see a 1/4" threaded rod looking up at you, find yourself a wooden dowel & tap down on this rod (do not stand in or around the 3-P-H arms when doing this) with some luck it might start to work, also at the end of the ramshaft R/H Side there should be a little leaver, in & up for 3-P-H, out and down for constant pumping,
Hope this helps you & let us know how you make out.

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ollek
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by ollek » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:13 am

Have you cleaned the suction screen under the transmission casing? Are you sure that there is enough oil in the transmission? Have you checked the O-ring betwen the pump and the suction tube? Have you checked the end play at the rotors in the pump and have you removed the "burrs" from inside the pump body? Thewre is a bleeder screw in fro0nt of the lift cylinder, ref 27 in the following link https://partstore.caseih.com/us/parts-s ... 05ar990486 , but you can bleed the lift cylinder by just completely lift and lower the 3-point hitch a few times. The pump is self bled at start up, providing that the hydraulic lever is in lowering position. The 3-way valve in a 880UE Implematic is not lever operated, but has 3 taps, please se the following link https://partstore.caseih.com/us/parts-s ... 5ar1015123 Please, do not use hydraulic fluid in the transmission, use engine oil or even better, use UTTO SAE 10W (or 15W)-30.
Last edited by ollek on Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

aczlan
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by aczlan » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:23 am

On the 3 way valve: I have tried all the various combinations of valves open and closed, none of them seem to make any difference and when I took the knobs (and the packing nut that they go through) off, the pieces underneath didn't seem to be moving at all, not sure if they need to have pressure through the valve or?.

On the suction side: One of the first things that came off was the suction screen (given the gunk that came out of the transmission), I cleaned it, replaced the Oring (as the old one was stretched and didn't fit right any more), blew out the suction line from the pump end and put it back together. The oring at the pump end seemed to still be a snug fit and I bolted it back down tightly

On the pump and the valve attached to it: I had the pump off (as I said) I did not check for play in the pump, but I did get flow through it setting the pump in a pan of oil and I cleaned out the moving parts of the valve as they were sticking. The linkage moves freely, and the rod that 1952CROPMASTER mentioned goes up and down without any issue (before it was sticking)
Picture of the pump and valve apart:
IMG_20191128_115804931.jpeg
IMG_20191128_115804931.jpeg (122.72 KiB) Viewed 287 times
When the tractor is running, I do not have ANY flow out of the aluminum tube in this picture that is supposed to oil the PTO gears:
IMG_20191128_102605362.jpeg
IMG_20191128_102605362.jpeg (100.92 KiB) Viewed 287 times
I do not have ANY change in sound no matter where I put the 3 point lever, no sound of hydraulics bypassing a pressure relief valve, nothing.

Fluid used: I said Hydraulic Fluid, I probbaly should have specified, I used "Harvest King® Premium Tractor Trans-Hydraulic Fluid for Case IH"
which claims that it is suitable "For use in all equipment with a common reservoir supplying fluid for the transmission, clutch, final drive, wet brakes, and hydraulics" it also claims to be "For use in all Case IH equipment requiring Hy-Tran MS-1209 or MS-1210. Also backservices all other Case IH specifications" as well as meeting the Kubota UDT and SUDT standards (important to me as our other tractors are all Kubotas, I dont want to have to stock multiple fluids and once its working, they will all be connected to the hydraulics on the same implements from time to time, so the fluid needs to be compatible).

Aaron Z

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ollek
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by ollek » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:40 pm

Reading all said, I am of the opinion that the pump does not get any oil. Perhaps because of an air leak in the suction side of the pump or a low oil level. The other posibility is that the pump itself is worn to the extent that it can not pump anymore.

ALANJ
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by ALANJ » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:30 pm

May I suggest checking the pump for terminal wear. Implematic tractors were equipped with the Dowty , bush pressure balanced units which may wear in two areas.
1- Over time the two pumping gears can contact the bottom of the pump body and grind a wear track in the aluminium .If the wear track exceeds 4 thou the gears snag on the track and cannot float to maintain contact with the bushes. Pressure oil can then flow back to the suction side of the pump resulting in low or no flow.
To check , strip the pump and measure the depth of the wear track.If the depth exceeds the said 4thou a partially effective "bodge" is to carefully scrape back the track 40 thou either side. This allows the gears and bushes to float together thus maintaining contact.
2- Again over time, the bush facings can wear where they are in contact with the rotating gears ,again resulting in loss of bush to gear contact due to excess float in the pump body. Max float spec on a used pump is 10 thou.
On these Dowty pbu pumps it is possible to shim the pack to restore the correct end float.Remove the end cover and measure the body protrusion over the pack.Thus if the protrusion is 20 thou cut a 10 thou shim to shape and fit between the rear of the bush and the endplate.
I vaguely recollect using what MAY have been gearbox layshaft shims to do the job back in the day. However,time dulls the memory.
Hope this helps. AJK.

Gard
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by Gard » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:05 pm

I agree with ALANJ, I was successful in rebuilding a pump, someone on this forum pointed out there would be a O-ring under the bottom bush, this was replaced along with the refitting and reshimming. Removing the bottom bushings was a project due to the scoring but it needs to be able to move, float. My experience was just about every part of the hydraulic system needed to be disassembled, cleaned and refitted.

I would recommend disassembly and cleaning of the 3 way valve first, I think you should be able to see oil flow with it removed.
I think a broken 3ph piston would cause some of your symptoms but you should be able to isolate with the 3 way valve. I would not be too surprised if you end up back at the pump eventually since there is no flow to the gear box with any position of the control lever.

I do not think these systems generally need to be primed but I have heard it suggested to try with the front of the tractor uphill, this will result in the pump and inlet tube below the oil level in case there there is a air leak in the inlet tube.

aczlan
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by aczlan » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:26 am

I will try putting the nose uphill, I tightened up the adjustment nut on the top of the valve so it should keep the pressure (and thus the resistance to the hydraulic flow) as low as possible while its trying to prime.

Plan of attack for tomorrow is:
1. Put a floodlight or heater under the transmission to warm the fluid up a little
2. While that is warming up, remove the 3 way valve and clean it up as much as I can, see if I can find what is stuck.
3. If I can get the 3 way valve unstuck, open a port and connect the vacuum to it

Aaron Z

aczlan
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by aczlan » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:28 am

If that doesn't work, I will try taking the pump apart and see how it looks inside.
Should the bolts holding the valve to the pump be an odd size? It seems that they heads were just over 1/2" (ie: a 1/2" wrench would not fit, or would barely fit).

Aaron Z

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cobbadog
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by cobbadog » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:53 am

If you have stuck valve/s in your 3 way valve chest then you need to sort that out first to have any chance of it working. Do the simple things first and work forward from there.

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ollek
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by ollek » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:51 am

It does not matter in what posaition or what condition the 3-way valve is, if there is no oil flow from the pump to the valve. Please, remove the pump and check it per informations given. Your problem is not priming, as the system is self primed when it is in order. The problem is taha the pump does not deliver any oil, as the linkage will not lift and there is no flow in the lubricatioin circuit.

aczlan
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by aczlan » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:52 am

Cleaned out the 3 way valves, looks like the center one controls flow to the 3 point, the outer two are for a trailer, etc.
Tried running it with the loader lifting the nose in the air, had enough fluid that the pump was submerged, but still no fluid being pumped.
Next I will take the PTO housing back off, then take the pump apart and see how much clearance there is inside.

Aaron Z

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cobbadog
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by cobbadog » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:30 am

Good luck, hope you find the problem.

ALANJ
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by ALANJ » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:41 am

Just a thought.Before removing the PTO housing ,why not check the pump is getting drive from the PTO clutch plate.To check engage the PTO with a dead engine and then try to manually turn the PTO shaft.If the shaft will not turn the driveline is good.
If it does turn the driveline is at fault.Sometimes the rivets secururing the PTO plate boss can shear .In this case residual friction can rotate the pump if there is no load but slips with any flow/pressure demand.

This test only takes 30 seconds and covers all bases. Hope this helps. AJK.

Gard
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Re: 1965 David Brown 880UE Implematic, how to prime transmission hydraulic pump?

Post by Gard » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:14 pm

As to the question about bolt size it may be that it is a wentworth (BSF) bolt?
I am sure the pump will come out much quicker this time after having done it recently...

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