FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

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Amended 19/09/18

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Scooby
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by Scooby » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:38 pm

Whoah up a minute please ! The DBTC is the official David Brown Tractor Club. It has the Museum, it publishes a magazine 4 times a year, it has events, organises tours round the factory, holds auctions, sets up meetings at Durker Roods which used to be Sir David Brown's home, runs this Forum, owns the last tractor DB ever made and lots of other DB company artefacts, helps with tractor registrations. The list is almost endless.

Please do not write it off just yet just because the Committee have produced a knee jerk reaction to a problem that might not even exist.

I ask everyone to calm down and the Committee to question what they have proposed and to take professional advice before implementing their decision. I also ask that paid-up Members at least, and ideally everyone registered on this site to be kept informed.
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Three is twee, four does snore, but 6 just clicks........Scooby

Odin 8
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by Odin 8 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:45 pm

Scooby and other Paid Up Members.
Thank you for the first sensible reply on this subject, I will try and clear the myths that have arrisen since the Committee has taken this obviously un-popular decision and not without reason.
  • It has been brought to our attention from a respected source, Liability from Social Media placed on the DBTC. This is not 'a knee jerk reaction'.
    Quote;-'it does not matter a jot if I am a member'. Rubbish. Infact 'membership' makes the difference between Social Media compared to Paid-Up Members Only. Liability takes a different view on one or the other. The fact that we are accused of making 'knee jerk reactions' says more about you and your lack of understanding of this subject. If you cannot grasp the liability of driving a car, repairing a machine, making a statement, then how can members of this committee sit back on there laurels allowing people to give advice on this platform from contributors who do not get it ?
    The committee is not a set of idiots for you people to 'undermine', comments like which type of solicitor to engage. We have requested a meeting with a specialist solicitor. This is happening, a date is set. Please give us a degree of credibility that we are capable of this much.
    The said solicitor read me a disclaimer regarding social media and it made the one on this forum as much use as a 'chocolate fire guard'.
    Paid up Members of the DBTC have a different status regarding disscussion compared to non-members. This is the reason we have to make the decision.
    Members can say things between members with a degree of protection free from liability, so becareful what you say to non-members.
    Is your name at the top of the list for liability? The Chairmans is with members of the committee following. Belittling words of advice to the Chairman are not worth a jot but give the same belittling words of advice to a non-member and you may find yourself in hot water.
    Affiliated members, like The Austrailian DBTC are Members of this platform by....... affiliation. If you are not an Austrailian DB Club Member then this is not aimed at you. If you are an Austrailian DB Club Member then take it on the chin just like other 'Paid up Members', because we can.
    Its a bit like The Sergeants Mess ; What is said in 'ere, heard in 'ere & seen in 'ere stays in 'ere. Unfortunately we are in the business of giving advice to non-members, so them rules cannot always be applied unless we are debating Club Issues. This is a Club Issue and not for Non-Club Members.
    Complicated isn't it. So what does the insurance policy state? We are not sure if we are covered at this moment because the Insurance Company does not recognise me yet as The New Secretary. Yet! I have requested the document for said meeting with said Solicitor as he wants to read it.
    If you want to set up your own media platform then one consideration is to purchase this one from the DBTC? However, you will have the same liability issue as us and we are still connected therefore still liable.
    The DBTC does value this site for its intended purpose of drawing new people in and giving advice. We do not wish to loose it. But reading some of the comments on here, as an experinced and qualified mechanic, non-legal, I have to question the advice given when many cannot get their heads around LIABILITY. LIABILITY and LIABILITY. How can you explain a hydraulic system creating 2000 psi of pressure delivering 5 gallons of oil per minute through an oriface the size of a pin head and then just want to ignore the liability of the advice givern to a novice ? Has the novice got his safety glasses on? Hard Hat. Rubber Johnny. Steel Toe Caps. Barrier Cream. Mothers Permission? Where does it all stop and that is the problem in a world ruled by solicitors. Finally, it is your money, the Members Money that we are spending on legal advice.
    :?: :idea: :idea: :?: :idea: :?: :idea:

Scooby
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by Scooby » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:40 pm

Mr. Odin.

You start off in your last post by thanking everyone for the first sensible reply on this subject. Which reply were you referring to ? You go on to opine a barely literate ramble about, and are highly critical of, our views to the point of belittling us when you could of course have continued with the debate by giving us the additional information in a civilised manner.

The tone is aggressive. "if you cannot grasp the liability of driving a car, repairing a machine, making a statement" Was there really any need for that type of rhetoric ? Who was trying to "undermine" the Committee ? I made an innocent suggestion about the type of lawyer to engage and I stand by that. Why the the sarcasm ?

Why all the nonsense about "If you want to set up your own media platform then one consideration is to purchase this one from the DBTC?" Are your fellow Committee Members aware that you are making such offers ? There was no need for that of course, it was facetious.

As regards the advice to a novice "Has the novice got his safety glasses on? Hard Hat. Rubber Johnny. Steel Toe Caps. Barrier Cream. Mothers Permission? " that tells me all I need to know about someone who joined the Forum less than 12 months ago.
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Three is twee, four does snore, but 6 just clicks........Scooby

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ollek
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by ollek » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:36 pm

Mr Odin
I can not see any difference between a club member and a non member, regarding the persons ability to do repairs in a professional an safe manner. Both can be a qualified mechanic or novice. Most of the answers given to questions are from specialists to noises and many specialists are not a member of the club. Specialists do not have to put up any questions on this forum, they know the solution without asking for help. And one more thing, it looks like you do not want people who are not paid up members of the club, to be a part of the discussion on this forum. Or what do you mean by starting of your latest jeremiad by writing "Scooby and other Paid Up Members". I have now stared to understand what all this is about, the committee wants to be like a autocrat, giving no possibilities for any other to have their opinions and I think the way you want to go is to first simply shot down the Forum, and after a while, discontinue the Club. This will then take care of all your "problems" once and for all. All this have been said by a non member of the club, so the value of this input is therefor most likely to be found in the trash bin. You have now made it clear that non members of the club are not needed,

Odin 8
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by Odin 8 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:33 pm

Thank you for the prompt reply.
Still neither of you have addressed the Liability. We can trade insults, be verbally agressive within reason as members of this Forum. Glad I did because it has provoked a reponse.I refer you to my first posting on this subject using a golf club example. We are members and we can do this, but I would not do the same with a non-member ??? I find my short time on here an interesting point of view, new kid on the block / Jonny come lately ?
The issue is ;- "Liability on social media" ?
Non-members, new DB owners acquire a tractor, have issues and want to know how to repair it. They do a search and end up on here and ask the question. You are the chaps with the experience & step in and answer the new enquirers' question to the best of your ability based on the information they give you. That is where the liability steps in. Your advice and instructions could be sound and correct but they still get something wrong resulting with a financial loss, injury or both. That is where the claims guys step in and we are wide open. You may not want to accept that point. The reason I have traded the insult is to try and make you see that point. At this moment in time the only answer is 'paid up' members but that does not fit the working of this Forum, so how do we go about it ? What do you want from this Forum. Compared to F.B. this Forum is tiny and almost shrivelled up. F.B. is the new kid on the block with 1000s of non-paid up members all acting under the banner of David Brown Tractors for which this Club owns the logo.
Once again we have a Solicitor acting for us at a cost to the membership to advise us on our 'liability on social media and handing out advice'. They have already confirmed that we have a liability issue.( I could repeat that in Swarheily if I wanted to be arogant and trade insults).
I am going in there to ask the solicitor questions. I can ask questions for you, but first you need to get your head around the issue instead of demeaning the committees reason for taking this stance.

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ollek
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by ollek » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:20 pm

Thank you for responds Mr Odin
I am not going to be in the way when the Forum is going down. From now on I will not give any advise to anybody asking for help on this forum. GODDBY!

broadsword
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by broadsword » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:52 pm

** EDITED**

I wish the committee well in the future and hopefully the club will survive long into the future.

Cheers

Andrew Armer
Last edited by broadsword on Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Berk
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by Berk » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:29 pm

Right, I'm truly confused how this has become so... circular.

I'm not a solicitor, nor do I stand to profit or lose from this situation in any real sense.

But you need to take a step back and do some research.

1) Has any club operator ever been prosecuted for advice from a member, or non member, causing harm/injury to another member/non member?

2) Has a forum admin ever been prosecuted for faulty or dangerous advice, which they did not give themselves? (ie. if I told scooby to lick an exhaust, would you be liable?)

3) Is a boilerplate disclaimer stating that advice on this forum is advice with no guarantees, suggestions of safety and given without the assumption of liability by the site, club, members or non members enough to CYA?

Thing is, not to put too fine a point on it, the only entity hurt by closing the forum to non club members is the club, and by extension its members, the rest of us can certainly find the advice elsewhere, and through archives for what's already been posted.

Unfortunately that rather leaves the club in a situation where one of its greatest assets to most people, becomes obsolete.

Odin 8
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by Odin 8 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:03 pm

Oh dear.
I have up-set the apple cart. Shoot the messenger, the purveyor of bad news. There is an elephant in the front room called 'Liability' and nobody on this debate so far will address it. I make no apologies for rattling your windows because I have tried to point out the issue of liability. The issue that has been brought to the attention of the DBTC Committee, yet still nobody on this forum will discuss it. ? This forum is void of adverse debate, totally bereft.
This informs me (and probably the Committee) that you want things to stay just exactly as they are. Well it is an option that you may get. Todate, to my knowledge as 'new kid on the block', there have been no claims brought against this Club from social media. It may never happen and God forbidd it does happen. However, should Liability the Elephant choose to stand up in the front room and it goes through the ceiling. The first person to be tipped out of his bed will be The Chairman, then the Directors and Committee Members in turn. Then watch our fickle freinds support us ?
Donald Trump ! What has he got to do with this debate? Has he got David Brown Tractors maintaining his golf course?
Mr Broadsword. There is a work party on Wednesday evening tidying up the museum. Please go. I will not be there as I with a few other Committee Members are meeting a Solicitor to take legal advice at a cost to this Club. (unlike the free advice this forum specialises in without protection). As the AGM is due in late October you will be able to rally the other members to get me voted off the Committee. You may ask about the letter that I have had to write which you brought up regarding the retaining wall that you regard as not safe, a Liability. Call me what ever you want because I will not be there to defend myself, nor do I care. My loyalty is towards The Chairman his Committee and this Club who I support in its best interests.
The floor is yours......

Scooby
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by Scooby » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:02 pm

Mr. Odin. You, as Secretary of a once World renowned and highly respected classic tractor club, are a disgrace in posting something like your last dissertation. Your language is childish and disrespectful to people who have put a lot more into the well-being of this Club than you ever have or indeed are likely to do. It is also very unprofessional for a club Secretary. You are an officer of the DBTC, you would do well to respect the position. Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the topic in question you have shown scant regard for other people's views. One Committee Member has already resigned because of your rants during the time that this Forum topic has been active. Another Committee Member has contacted me to say that they don't agree with the proposal.

Two very well respected Forum members and DB Trusted contributors who, because of their vast technical knowledge gained from working at the sharp end of DB tractors and machinery have said that they do not intend to post any further help and/or advice on the Forum because of the proposal.

It may well be that there is a liability problem although I and others have expressed huge doubts about this. You keep writing about liability and yet you and others are going to see a lawyer to see if there is in fact any. That tells me and obviously many others that the decision on the matter was premature.

The Club of course is showing it's dirty washing in public and if you had ignored all the views and kept your fingers away from your keyboard all the other David Brown groups around the World wouldn't be laughing at us as they surely are now.
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Three is twee, four does snore, but 6 just clicks........Scooby

broadsword
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by broadsword » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:34 pm

Odin 8 wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:03 pm

Mr Broadsword. There is a work party on Wednesday evening tidying up the museum. Please go. I will not be there as I with a few other Committee Members are meeting a Solicitor to take legal advice at a cost to this Club. (unlike the free advice this forum specialises in without protection). As the AGM is due in late October you will be able to rally the other members to get me voted off the Committee. You may ask about the letter that I have had to write which you brought up regarding the retaining wall that you regard as not safe, a Liability. Call me what ever you want because I will not be there to defend myself, nor do I care. My loyalty is towards The Chairman his Committee and this Club who I support in its best interests.
The floor is yours......



Is this for real ???

Rallying people to get you voted off the committee at the AGM. Suggesting I go along and slag you off behind your back. On top of that then bringing up a valid point I brought up in a committee meeting that I felt a retaining wall may be unsafe at the back of the museum and if there was something we could do to ask the landlord to rectify - brought up on a public forum to essentially ridicule me.

Sorry I am out of here - you get on with airing dirty laundary Robert, I`m not. I`ll let the people reading all this make their own minds up.

All the best

Andrew

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poppydog
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by poppydog » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:34 am

This whole debate seems to have become personal and I see no reason for it. If the secretary is going to get legal advice then he should refrain from any more comments until he has that and then share it with us. We can then debate this. Legal advice is no different to scientific advice - it depends largely on the interpretation of the person giving the advice and you can sometimes get two different interpretations from two different people. The only "right" advice is from the courts and even then it can be changed on appeal!
I said earlier that disclaimers can be a legal defence and this should be looked at.
If this forum was to disappear it would be a big loss.

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bedwards1966
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by bedwards1966 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:43 pm

Scooby wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:40 pm
Mr. Odin.

You start off in your last post by thanking everyone for the first sensible reply on this subject. Which reply were you referring to ? You go on to opine a barely literate ramble about, and are highly critical of, our views to the point of belittling us when you could of course have continued with the debate by giving us the additional information in a civilised manner.

The tone is aggressive. "if you cannot grasp the liability of driving a car, repairing a machine, making a statement" Was there really any need for that type of rhetoric ? Who was trying to "undermine" the Committee ? I made an innocent suggestion about the type of lawyer to engage and I stand by that. Why the the sarcasm ?

Why all the nonsense about "If you want to set up your own media platform then one consideration is to purchase this one from the DBTC?" Are your fellow Committee Members aware that you are making such offers ? There was no need for that of course, it was facetious.

As regards the advice to a novice "Has the novice got his safety glasses on? Hard Hat. Rubber Johnny. Steel Toe Caps. Barrier Cream. Mothers Permission? " that tells me all I need to know about someone who joined the Forum less than 12 months ago.
Scooby wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:02 pm
Mr. Odin. You, as Secretary of a once World renowned and highly respected classic tractor club, are a disgrace in posting something like your last dissertation. Your language is childish and disrespectful to people who have put a lot more into the well-being of this Club than you ever have or indeed are likely to do. It is also very unprofessional for a club Secretary. You are an officer of the DBTC, you would do well to respect the position. Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the topic in question you have shown scant regard for other people's views. One Committee Member has already resigned because of your rants during the time that this Forum topic has been active. Another Committee Member has contacted me to say that they don't agree with the proposal.

Two very well respected Forum members and DB Trusted contributors who, because of their vast technical knowledge gained from working at the sharp end of DB tractors and machinery have said that they do not intend to post any further help and/or advice on the Forum because of the proposal.

It may well be that there is a liability problem although I and others have expressed huge doubts about this. You keep writing about liability and yet you and others are going to see a lawyer to see if there is in fact any. That tells me and obviously many others that the decision on the matter was premature.

The Club of course is showing it's dirty washing in public and if you had ignored all the views and kept your fingers away from your keyboard all the other David Brown groups around the World wouldn't be laughing at us as they surely are now.
Very well put Scooby.

I find it remarkable that a single person has managed to lose two brilliant forum posters by dealing with this so-called 'liability issue' (which may not even be problem) with such insulting and childish posts.
Just reading through this thread since my last visit makes me feel like leaving as well.

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DB780
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by DB780 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:28 am

Perhaps the hidden agenda is to increase the club membership!

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dbiow
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Re: FORUM TO BECOME MEMBERS ONLY 01/11/18

Post by dbiow » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:55 pm

I have refrained from posting on this mainly as I don’t post very often however:

I have been planning to join the club but am now thinking twice. My late father was a early member of the club and always enjoyed getting the magazine and he paid a trip to the museum how ever he always said “it’s a closed shop” this would appear to be true from reading the last few posts.

I would like thank (in no real order) db2d, db780, ollek, Scooby and many others that have given me advice since joining here on inheriting my 885 and 25d. I feel this (the forum) huge asset to the wider community will be missed greatly.

Thank you all (members and non members like myself) for your hospitality but it would appear that some feel I’ve (and all other non/future members) overstayed my welcome, this I will rectify for you by quietly leaving the virtual pub for a new metaphorical drinking hole.

I wish you all the best with the club but I have made the decision not to be involved. The issue of liability may well be real but I use other forums that have a disclaimer and run quite openly and professionally. I would urge you explore all other options before pulling the plug on this. If it is made members only it may not pulll the plug at that moment but it will die a slow and painful death and I think you may as well put it out of its misery quickly and humanly.

I know my humble opinion means nothing as I’m not “in” so feel free to ignore it or use it (at your own risk :lol: :lol: )

Good night and thank you all for having me.
885 q cab and 25d on the Isle of Wight.

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