Manifold flange removal.

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Scooby
Posts: 3931
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:16 pm
Location: Warwickshire

Manifold flange removal.

Post by Scooby » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:13 pm

I need to remove the flange (18) that holds the exhaust pipe (muffler) onto the exhaust manifold on my Comm. Please see the attached image. I am soaking the 3 nuts (item 21) in WD40 penetrating oil. Will they screw off the studs perfectly alright, will the studs (19) come out with the nuts, or am I likely to shear the studs off inside the manifold casting ? I can get the nuts red hot with the gas axe. Would that be a better tactic. TIA for any suggestions.
Manifold flange.JPG
Manifold flange.JPG (46.74 KiB) Viewed 1302 times
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Three is twee, four does snore, but 6 just clicks........Scooby

ALANJ
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Location: Co. Durham

Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by ALANJ » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:09 pm

Heating and high torquing may do the trick or may crack the manifold casting.A certain but more expensive method is to angle grind off the 3 nuts and remove the stub.Then remove the manifold and angle grind the remaining stud protrusion.Then take the manifold to a machine shop which carries out "spark erosion" This process erodes the remainder of the embedded studs leaving the threads in perfect condition.A moderately expensive process but cheaper than a replacement manifold. AJK.

Scooby
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Location: Warwickshire

Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by Scooby » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:21 pm

Thanks for that. I am undecided what to actually do since nothing is broken at the moment. The problem is that the bottom of the exhaust has become very sloppy in the flange and I thought that if I took it off, and then puts some spots of weld on the bottom of the exhaust it would be much better. But almost certainly, when I put some spots of weld on the exhaust they will want grinding down and it would be much easier to get a good fit if the flange could be offered up to the bottom of the exhaust, rather having to lift the exhaust up and drop it into the flange each time I have ground a bit off.

I hope all that makes sense.
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Three is twee, four does snore, but 6 just clicks........Scooby

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bedwards1966
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Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by bedwards1966 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:21 pm

It's impossible to say whether they'll come off without breaking. Sometimes it's obvious that they're too corroded, often you can't tell until you've tried it. Every now and then things like this can come apart with ease, against all expectations. If you get any movement on the nuts work them back and forth rather than forcing them off - often you'll get them start to turn then get tighter, and if you just carry on they snap whereas with care they'll come out.

Heating the nuts to red is usually enough to make even very stubborn ones come out, but try to avoid putting heat into the cast iron manifold and don't use water to cool it down at any point.

It shouldn't really matter to you whether the nuts come off or the studs come out, the end results are the same.

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cobbadog
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Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by cobbadog » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:20 am

Time to heat the nuts up and give it a try. There are no way of knowing what will happen until you try. Another option to try is to use eithe a nut splitter or if you have room use your angle grinder to cut the nuts on an angle down to near the thread and this might help release its grip. Obviously once apart use a die to clean up the threads and if available replace the old nuts with brass ones.

Scooby
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Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by Scooby » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:39 am

Thanks for all the help Gentlemen. I had thought about trying to cut the nuts off and then dieing <sp> the studs. It says they are UNC in which case I would have to obtain a die. Just undecided whether to do it or not. One thing I usually do when in a situation like this is to try and tighten the nuts just a little just before trying to work them. Under normal circumstances that is quite easy because they are onto a new bit of thread but with UNC on a manifold I'm not so sure.
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Three is twee, four does snore, but 6 just clicks........Scooby

SteveCollett
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Location: Suffolk

Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by SteveCollett » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:08 am

firstly you want a six sided socket or ring spanner to minimise slippage.
wire brush as much as you an of the top
gently try rocking the nuts after a long soaking with WD 40
if no joy carefully heat the nut with a welding/ brazing torch to keep the heat in as small an area as possible take it to cherry red. then try again. if no joy nut splitter.
one the stub is off it should be easy enough to clean up the studs too take more nuts

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cobbadog
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Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by cobbadog » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:04 pm

UNC die nut would not be expensive and more than likely sitting in a box of die nuts at a garage sale but
i can get them for around AU$15.00 then once clean assemble with some anti sieze and brass nuts.

John.Newman
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Location: Gowrie Junction, via Toowoomba, Qld, Australia

Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by John.Newman » Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:11 pm

Hi David, long time away but still around. Regarding the seized nut / stud issue, if all else fails and the stud breaks off flush or close to the head, what I used to do, as this was a common occurance on Caterpillar 3500 series engine exhaust manifolds as used on D11s etc, was to spray penaterating oil around the stud, then accurately clamp a 3/8" nut over the broken bolt then using an electric welder set to a low current setting, with a 12G stainless welding rod I would build up the end of the bolt and then weld it to the nut. Leave until cold to the touch, spray with more WD40 and then gently work the nut until it frees up and screws out. I have had a 100% success rate with this method. Stainless is the best rod to use as the arc strikes easily at low settings and the build up is very strong.
This also puts concentrated heat on the bolt causing it to expand, and on cooling down it contracts and breaks the rust on the threads.
Regards,
John

Scooby
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Location: Warwickshire

Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by Scooby » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:29 pm

Hello John, good to hear from you again and I hope all is well with you. Thank you for the advice, that sounds like a decent way of going about things. I have now decided that I will have to leave this job until the Winter because if it does happen to go wrong in this catchy Summer that we are having in the U.K. I could regret starting it. Thanks again John. Kind regards - David.
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Three is twee, four does snore, but 6 just clicks........Scooby

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cobbadog
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Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by cobbadog » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:05 pm

I recently was shown a jar full of broken drill bits and the owner asked if I noticed anything unusual about them. No was my reply. He said look at the flukes on the drill bit they run the opposite direction. He had no idea of what they were so I asked around and found out that they are left handed drill bits for drilling out broken studs and using a hammer action on the drill and running the drill in an anti-clockwise direction. The theory behind it all is that the hammering also helps loosen the stud. Start with a small bit and work your way up in size. Never seen or heard of this before but from those who knew about them said they work a treat.

John.Newman
Posts: 270
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Location: Gowrie Junction, via Toowoomba, Qld, Australia

Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by John.Newman » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:35 pm

These LH bits appear to be readily available on an internet search. Easy outs are another option but I prefer the straight tapered version instead of the the LH helical type as they do not tend to expand the broken piece of bolt / stud the same and do not snap off as easily when in use.
Regards,
John

SteveCollett
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Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by SteveCollett » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:34 am

If you use a left handed bit and the hammer mode , do not start hammering until well into the stud. hammering will wreck the bit in seconds so it is just an emergency thing. normally the bit will pull the stud out on its own.
These bits have been around for ever but never became common, I suspect it is because most older AC drills did not have a reverse facility

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bedwards1966
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Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by bedwards1966 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:09 am

Left handed drill bits and stud extractors are useless on seized items. If it's rusted in place tight enough to snap in the first place then the extractor will also snap. Once this happens you're in trouble, a broken extractor in a hole is difficult to deal with.

Where they are effective is when the fastener has broken through over tightening or overloading. When this is the case it doesn't usually require much force to get the remains of it out.

For something that has seized in place and snapped the only method I have found to be effective at unscrewing it is to build up the broken stud with weld until you can weld a nut on. It's the only thing that's strong enough, and has the heat. If it breaks you can just do it again, rather than having a hardened extractor snapped in the hole.

Scooby
Posts: 3931
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:16 pm
Location: Warwickshire

Re: Manifold flange removal.

Post by Scooby » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:42 pm

Thanks to everybody for all the help. I have decided it's a Winter time job now in case it all goes pear shaped. :roll: .
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Three is twee, four does snore, but 6 just clicks........Scooby

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