If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

The place to discuss all matters relating to David Brown Tractors. You will need to register your user name before you can post. If you have already registered could you please make sure that your location details have been completed. Go to My Account in the Main Menu on the left, and then go into "Edit Your Information" and complete your location details. Give the Country (and State/Province if you wish) if outside the U.K. County if within the U.K. Location details helps other members if you need spares, technical advice, or the nearest practical help.

DISCLAIMER -

David Brown Tractor Club Ltd
Forum/website Disclaimer

1. This [forum/website/chat room] and the advice and opinions expressed herein is not a solution for mechanical, electrical, valuations, other problems, breakdowns or issues experienced in relation to the vehicles referenced.

2. If reliance is thought to be placed on any of the information guidance or input provided such information will be expressly confirmed as appropriate to be relied upon.

3. In the absence of any such confirmation no reliance should be suggested or inferred.

4. Members must not disclose information to 3rd parties in anticipation that reliance will be given by non-members.

5. Non-members must not purport to give advice on behalf of David Brown Tractor Club.

6. If you or someone you know is experiencing difficulties or repeated breakdowns you must seek assistance for an appropriately qualified expert who holds themselves out as such.

7. Any comments are free of charge and made or posted on an ex gratia basis. No member or non-member may advertise their professional services

Any user inactive for more than 3 months will automatically be deactivated, please contact admin@dbtc.co.uk if you would like to be reactivated.

Please be aware that your user name and entered location can be seen by all members. We only store information you have entered which is your email address and username, your IP is also stored, we have no access to private passwords.

If you do not agree with your information being stored, please do not register an account, If you wish to unsubscribe at any time please email admin@dbtc.co.uk giving your username.

Amended 27/10/18

Moderators: Segrie61, admin

ScottUSA
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:59 pm
Location: North Carolina

If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by ScottUSA » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:37 pm

One more thing to add to the to-do list: replace starter drive. When it decided to quit, it quit! About wore out a good mood trying to get it started to move it into the shed last night. Anyway, I have not found online nor do I have literature showing the starter DRIVE part number. In doing a search I am finding some deceptive adds so I want to be sure I am ordering the correct part. It is a 1976 885 diesel AD355. Thanks up front!

User avatar
ollek
Posts: 3816
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:20 pm
Location: South West Finland

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by ollek » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:31 am

What are you referring to when you say "starter drive"? Do you mean Bendix or solenoid or something else? What are the symptoms when the tractor will not start? Have you checked the battery condition and have you cleaned all cable connections between the battery and the starter motor? Have you checked that the starter safety switch is working correctly? Do you have the gear levers in neutral when you turn the key? Bendix drives and solenoids are usually not covered by David Brown parts supply, but are sold by the starter motor company. Many part stores can supply correct parts for the starter, provided that they know the starter brand and model and the tractor brand and model the starter is fitted to. The best parts supply is usually a company that deals with car, truck and tractor electrics.

ScottUSA
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:59 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by ScottUSA » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:20 pm

It has a roller clutch starter drive. The roller clutch has failed. Local rebuilders use Chinese or Mexican parts that in the past have proven not worth the effort to install. Local parts store have to order the drive from outside their normal suppliers, as a result it is usually much cheaper to buy online. Online listings so far have been vague and the images are incorrect. The DB electrical information I have only allows that the starter for a diesel 885 is either a M45 or M50. Don't know if the drives are different between them. I guess because it is a Lucas starter I'll need to find numbers on the starter and go for there.

ScottUSA
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:59 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by ScottUSA » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:53 pm

Starter is a Lucas M45G, stamped with #6310J. Near as I can come up with, the DB part number is A-K957340. Amazon sells a new David Brown brand (if that's possible) starter that is supposed to fit the 885 for around $124 U.S. Sounds too cheap to be any good. Found a nearby rebuilder who stocks DB starter parts, he has a Brazilian made starter drive for ~$60, supposed to be above average quality. If anyone has something to add to the above I'd love to hear it before spending my money tomorrow.

User avatar
rid54
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:20 am
Location: Vallentuna, Sweden

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by rid54 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:41 pm

Where I live, starter motors and generators (dynamos, alternators) are usually a specialist-type component; that is, you find a specialist shop that deals with these things irrespective of their heritage, so to speak. Motorcar, marine, tractor... these firms know the ins and outs of whatever you put in front of them, if it has to do with electromechanics. If the one-way (overrun) clutch has failed, you need either a new clutch of the precise description, or a new starter motor. If you do not have any competent actor at hand, you may have to resort to online shopping, but DB did obviously not actually make starters themselves. You have identified it as a Lucas unit. A cheapo replacement component may not fit at all and be totally useless, or it may fit and do service for some time. A replacement starter motor may be the better choice, if it is the right motor, or a compatible one... Buying a purportedly identical one may be a hazard, but if it is identical to the unit you already have, it may come in handy, unless it also has a broken clutch.

The Bendix reference is a bit confusing, as bendix type clutches/drives went out of tashion a long time ago. The starters on most engines since the 1950's are of the pre-engaged type, with a solenoid that first meshes the starter drive with the ring drive on the flywheel and then allows electric power to the starter motor, so it turns with full power only after the gears have engaged. The Bendix type drive uses a totally different way of meshing the gears.

User avatar
ollek
Posts: 3816
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:20 pm
Location: South West Finland

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by ollek » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:12 am

Rid54, read the following. The gear and the clutch that the solenoid is throwing into contact with the ring gear on the fly wheel, is called Bendix and this can also be called starter drive and this system is still widely used. The following link shows the Bendix drive and tells you how it works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhdSq4WOaDM

User avatar
cobbadog
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:18 am
Location: beautiful Coopernook NSW. near Taree. NSW. Australia

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by cobbadog » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:00 am

WOW, you are super lucky over there, a starter motor for your tractor here is over AU$415.00 plus AU$40.00 postage here in Oz. No brand name on it or where it comes from either. Details on the solenoid are DEM902 12v-2.8 Kw with 11 teeth.

User avatar
rid54
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:20 am
Location: Vallentuna, Sweden

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by rid54 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:34 am

Bendix:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendix_drive
an engagement mechanism for a starter motor drive gear

User avatar
ollek
Posts: 3816
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:20 pm
Location: South West Finland

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by ollek » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:13 am

The link you have sent is explaining in principle the same as shown in the link I sent earlier. You stated "bendix type clutches/drives went out of fashion a long time ago". NO it did not. A Bendix drive is an old system, but it is still used in most vehicles used on the road, in the field, in the forest and in the terrain. There are many variations on the same principle but it is still a Bendix drive. David Brown tractors use a Bendix drive with a fork securing the movement of the starter drive gear. The top picture in the following link shows the fork and it also tells that this variant is called pre engagement https://www.howacarworks.com/basics/how ... stem-works

User avatar
cobbadog
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:18 am
Location: beautiful Coopernook NSW. near Taree. NSW. Australia

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by cobbadog » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:10 pm

This might be a case of same thing different name. Here we call them bendix drives but in the US it maybe what was descr4ibed as a pre-engaged type.
Another analagy would be generator and dynamo. It is because of these differing descriptions that things can get confusing.

User avatar
ollek
Posts: 3816
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:20 pm
Location: South West Finland

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by ollek » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:51 pm

A Bendix drive can be of different types. One of the types is the pre-engaged Bendix drive. The reason for all this is tat rid54 wrote that he thought that the Bendix drive vent out of fashion a long time ago and this is not the case.

ScottUSA
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:59 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by ScottUSA » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:37 pm

I was born and raised in the northern U.S., a Yankee by southern definition. After living in the southern U.S. for 31 years I am quite aware of a "thing" or an action having different names according to where you were born and raised. Once aware of this it is not a huge matter to accommodate others preferred term. Example; Spanner in Brit-speak is a wrench in U.S.

I am old enough to have dealt with actual Bendix starter drives and experienced the near universal transition to the roller clutch design. I used "starter drive" in my original post as a generic term figuring it was descriptive enough because guys like Ollek knew which type Lucas used on the 885. Besides all I was looking for was a part number to facilitate my search for a replacement.

A local starter and alternater rebuilder has a new Brazilian made drive ordered that costs $40 U.S. to arrive on Tuesday. He ordered two, one for me, the other his inventory. He has been in the business for thirty years and thought he stocked all the possible Lucas drives... until he saw mine! So, one more trip to town, which is okay because it provides an excuse for my old dog and myself to stop along the way to eat junk food. Don't tell the wife!

Cobbadog, Don't be jealous, I read the reviews of the cheap starter from Amazon, they suggest my moneys better spent repairing the old one.

User avatar
rid54
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:20 am
Location: Vallentuna, Sweden

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by rid54 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:05 pm

I'm sorry if I cause confusion, but I have dealt with starters a few times. The Bendix variety is the one that relies on rotational inertia to engage the starter motor gear into the ring gear of the flywheel. The gear on the starter pinion is shaped like a sleeve that has a spiralling groove inside that matches the groove on the axle proper. As the armature (rotor) accelerates when voltage is applied, the heavy sleeve travels outward along the axle, sluggish to gain speed due to its weight, and forces the starter gear into mesh with the ring gear and the starter is then engaged and turns the flywheel. The pre-engaged type uses a solenoid that pulls the sliding starter gear into mesh with a fork lever. Only when the starter gear is meshed with the ring gear, the electrical circuit to the motor is closed, by the heavy-duty contacts inside the solenoid (it acts like a contactor as well as a pulling magnet). The Wikipedia article explains this better than I do. The bendix engagement system was invented by a guy named Bendix.

I am sorry if I clouded the issue. I was wrong about bendix being out of fashion to a certain extent, I notice that some American cars of the 60's and 70's have them, but if the starter motor has a solenoid that pulls the gear into mesh, it is not a bendix-type starter in Sweden. Word usage may of course be different in other parts of the world.

User avatar
ollek
Posts: 3816
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:20 pm
Location: South West Finland

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by ollek » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:05 am

Rid54, please read the following: The starter motor itself has a device, called a Bendix gear, which engages its pinion with the gear ring on the flywheel only while the starter is turning the engine. It disengages as soon as the engine picks up speed, and there are two ways by which it does so - the inertia system and the pre-engaged system. The pre-engaged system has a fork on the Bendix and the fork is moved with a solenoid. The Bendix gear is still in use in engine starting systems. You can call it what ewer you want, but this is the international wording for the system. The gear moved by the fork and the solenoid is called Bendix gear, even in Sweden. Rid54, Please see the following link and look at "Startmotordelar" https://www.startmotor.se/tag/Startmotorer/ The text says Drev, även kallat Bendixdrev

User avatar
cobbadog
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:18 am
Location: beautiful Coopernook NSW. near Taree. NSW. Australia

Re: If it's not one thing it's another. 885 starter drive #

Post by cobbadog » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:18 am

No worries Scott, I didn't price a new bendix jsut found an after market starter motor whch is all that is available here as a replacemnt starter motor. No doubt somehwer I could buy a bendix for one if required.
I looked at buying a new solenoid for the Hino starter motor. It has 3 wires that run to it and not just the 2 as normal. This made the price go through the roof as nothing else was compatible so only genuine was the go. Again an after market starter motro was almost AU$600.00 delivered if required. Fortunately the new solenoid fixed 99% of the starters problems.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests