1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

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philedge
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:27 am
Location: Chester UK

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by philedge » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:01 pm

polbaeman wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:43 pm


Still looking for a block heater if anyone knows of a EU or UK supplier that may help? Nobody got one for sale?

Still putting off the inevitable strip down and going for easy options first. However, just thinking back to the glorious hot summer we've just had, it didn't want to start even in the heat of the sun. There's no pleasing that tractor.
If you had problems stsrting in the height of the summer, I wouldnt have thought a block heater is going to help much.

For pre heating the intake air use a hot air gun/paint stripper. Blowing a gas torch into the inlet will be blowing in lots of combustion gases with a depleted oxygen content.
'66 880 Selectamatic rat.

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GeoffDEAL
Posts: 411
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:25 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by GeoffDEAL » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:57 am

Hi if it didnt want to start in the heat of summer its just not getting fuel, my fuel pump was New still was not getting fuel, an electric pump solved the problem. does not need a very high pressure one just something that keeps up the fuel supply at a moderate pressure. Has worked for me and others.

polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:15 pm

philedge wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:01 pm
polbaeman wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:43 pm


Still looking for a block heater if anyone knows of a EU or UK supplier that may help? Nobody got one for sale?

Still putting off the inevitable strip down and going for easy options first. However, just thinking back to the glorious hot summer we've just had, it didn't want to start even in the heat of the sun. There's no pleasing that tractor.
If you had problems stsrting in the height of the summer, I wouldnt have thought a block heater is going to help much.

For pre heating the intake air use a hot air gun/paint stripper. Blowing a gas torch into the inlet will be blowing in lots of combustion gases with a depleted oxygen content.
Hi Phil, like I've said, tried that but with mixed results. Some times it worked other times it didn't. Warmth helps, or seems to, but the term used is 'sometimes'. My Christmas Elf Donald didn't turn up today so I haven't tried it due to it being outside and in the bad weather and very, very, very wet conditions.

polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:18 pm

GeoffDEAL wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:57 am
Hi if it didnt want to start in the heat of summer its just not getting fuel, my fuel pump was New still was not getting fuel, an electric pump solved the problem. does not need a very high pressure one just something that keeps up the fuel supply at a moderate pressure. Has worked for me and others.
Hi Geoff, Just looking at the options on Ebay and other sites. I'm determined that this machine is going to work one way or the other. For the time being, just keep large hammers out of my way.

polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:20 pm

skyrydr2 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:23 am
The tractor is old and has been put away wet, If its that reluctant to start normally hit it with the ether! Just be sure its turning before spraying at the air intake.
If it were a new or good fresh engine I would not spray it, but seeing its old and questionable...
ABSOLUTELY PUT AN ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP ON IT! One that can pump at least 5 -15 psi and has 1-3 gpm. That will stop any fuel delivery issues as long as the tank is clean and full and the filters are good! And it will help find any leaking delivery pipes and connections!
And get a heating source of some kind for the engine, those are cold temps for a diesel to especially one that's tired. I use a Kat's coolant heater in the heater core circuit and it works good and I get heat in the cab in short fashion.
Kat's 13150 1500 Watt Aluminum Circulating Tank Heater is what I use.

And just for the record: my DB 950 never started with out a sniff of ether when cold and it never hurt that engine! YOU JUST CAN'T SPRAY IT BEFORE CRANKING AND USE IT SPARINGLY! Never keep spaying it to keep the engine going either! That WILL RUIN THE PISTONS AND RINGS!.
JD came from the factory with ether injection so I don't think it will hurt your old rig if it gets whiffed a tiny bit to get the fire going.
I take it that the fuel pump will just be mounted where the lift pump was and a blanking plate added. There are quite a few out there, some described as low output and others as high, so I take it 5 - 15psi will more than suffice? Did you put it on a separate switch or run a spur from the ignition?

polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:31 pm

polbaeman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:20 pm
skyrydr2 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:23 am
The tractor is old and has been put away wet, If its that reluctant to start normally hit it with the ether! Just be sure its turning before spraying at the air intake.
If it were a new or good fresh engine I would not spray it, but seeing its old and questionable...
ABSOLUTELY PUT AN ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP ON IT! One that can pump at least 5 -15 psi and has 1-3 gpm. That will stop any fuel delivery issues as long as the tank is clean and full and the filters are good! And it will help find any leaking delivery pipes and connections!
And get a heating source of some kind for the engine, those are cold temps for a diesel to especially one that's tired. I use a Kat's coolant heater in the heater core circuit and it works good and I get heat in the cab in short fashion.
Kat's 13150 1500 Watt Aluminum Circulating Tank Heater is what I use.

And just for the record: my DB 950 never started with out a sniff of ether when cold and it never hurt that engine! YOU JUST CAN'T SPRAY IT BEFORE CRANKING AND USE IT SPARINGLY! Never keep spaying it to keep the engine going either! That WILL RUIN THE PISTONS AND RINGS!.
JD came from the factory with ether injection so I don't think it will hurt your old rig if it gets whiffed a tiny bit to get the fire going.
I take it that the fuel pump will just be mounted where the lift pump was and a blanking plate added. There are quite a few out there, some described as low output and others as high, so I take it 5 - 15psi will more than suffice? Did you put it on a separate switch or run a spur from the ignition? Just been looking at the Kat's heater. Pretty impressive and reasonably priced. Thanks for that.

polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:34 pm

polbaeman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:18 pm
GeoffDEAL wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:57 am
Hi if it didnt want to start in the heat of summer its just not getting fuel, my fuel pump was New still was not getting fuel, an electric pump solved the problem. does not need a very high pressure one just something that keeps up the fuel supply at a moderate pressure. Has worked for me and others.
Hi Geoff, Just looking at the options on Ebay and other sites. I'm determined that this machine is going to work one way or the other. For the time being, just keep large hammers out of my way.
What sort of pump did you fit just out of interest?

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GeoffDEAL
Posts: 411
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:25 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by GeoffDEAL » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:43 pm

Hi the electric pump is mounted between the tank and lift pump, leave the lift pump where it is , a plug or switch or wire it into key system is fine, will check on make of mine it is a solid state type of pump and not expensive about $40 i think around 5-6 psi but up to 10psi is all thats necessary.

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skyrydr2
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:27 am
Location: USA, Massachusetts

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by skyrydr2 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:49 am

Electric Fuel pump is before mechanical unit. It comes on with key and stays on until key is turned off . Had to add a relay so it stayed on while cranking with a heavy duty diode in line to arrest back feed voltage that could keep the starter engaged.
Even with all the improvements it will still start harder than normal when below zero Fahrenheit. Only diesel I have ever seen start good at these temps is the GM Duramax diesel and the Isuzu diesels we have in our heavy construction equipment! They snap to life as if it were 60° F out! You get really spoiled using these rigs. Try and start a JD or Ford at those temps...
.

polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:39 pm

GeoffDEAL wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:43 pm
Hi the electric pump is mounted between the tank and lift pump, leave the lift pump where it is , a plug or switch or wire it into key system is fine, will check on make of mine it is a solid state type of pump and not expensive about $40 i think around 5-6 psi but up to 10psi is all thats necessary.
Hi Geoff, thanks, and a good point from skyryder2. Once the key moves from the 'on' position to the start position, the fuel pump will stop. Maybe a seperate switch with a light on so you don't forget? I suppose once you stop the engine, there'll be noise from the pump to remind you it's still on - maybe? I'm surprised that it can pump past/through the mechanical pump without any resisitance. But all you are doing is maintaining and ensuring pressure is kept up at that stage. I'm going to finish up with a dashboard full of seperate switches and buttons, heat plugs etc, now the pump. Anyone asks, I'll tell them it's an anti-theft measure. Just a point regarding the Kat's heater units, they work out around $90 to buy direct from the Amazon US (with a 27% reduction offer) and that includes packaging and import duty. If I buy the same from the UK it is £145!! Some difference! It is 220v in the US?

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rid54
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:20 am
Location: Vallentuna, Sweden

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by rid54 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:16 pm

Most of the US has 110 or 127 V as far as I know. (And it's 60 Hz, but to a normal heater that is of no importance.)

Most diaphragm pumps use two one-way valves; one -in the suction line- allowing fuel into the pumping cavity but not outwards, while the other is installed the other way around, only allowing outbound flow into the delivery line. Pressure in the inlet line will cause a flow into the pumping cavity and further out into the delivery line, the 2 valves just letting the fluid run past them as they will both be open in the direction of the flow.

philedge
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:27 am
Location: Chester UK

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by philedge » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:27 pm

If your intending buying a block warmer from the US, bear in mind that youll likely need to pay VAT and an admin fee to the courier to collect the VAT and pay it to the vatman. That'll bring the price nearer UK prices. Any warranty issues will be a pain with a US supplier.

If you're thinking of adding a electric pump, are you sure youve got a fuel delivery problem? Is the cam or pushrod definitely worn?
'66 880 Selectamatic rat.

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rid54
Posts: 174
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Location: Vallentuna, Sweden

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by rid54 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:58 pm

I think that there are a few things that do suggest a fuel problem, but it could be about both injection volume and injection timing. An electric fuel pump of the kind needed shouldn't be more than 40€ where I live, and it doesn't do any harm if fitted needlessly. But if it can be determined, that cranking indeed produces the required flow of fuel, the original pump is probably OK... Hand pumping alone working OK is not conclusive evidence of a good fuel delivery.

Descriptions in the thread about lots of smoke do suggest that there is fuel being injected, but smoke volume and colour are not conclusive evidence of adequate fuel volume being injected.

On the other hand, the no-start situation is obviously not only happening in cold weather, which is a bit odd. This could suggest, that timing is off. In warm weather, the engine should not have starting problems at all. I just recently tried starting my 880 in -2°C. 5 secs of cranking, no thermostart or anything, and it came around nicely. The tractormeter is at 4500+ hrs. But in that case I know that the lift pump works, the filters are all new, and I know that the injection pump is OK, because it was put in as replacement for the old one a year ago and a timing check was done at that time.

So: it might be good to check the following:
1. Fuel delivery by lift pump when cranking
2. Injection timing
3. The proper working of the stop-run lever and, if possible, the regulator (in respect to the metering rod and the throttle lever setting)
4. Always have the throttle lever in a position around 50% when starting.

jazo
Posts: 772
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:13 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by jazo » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:19 pm

I don't mean to be rude but you have ten pages of good info on here and it seems like you haven't done much with it! I would forget about buying anything until you diagnose the problem first. I would first fit 20 litre container of diesel above the engine and connect to the intake of the lift pump and run the return into the top of the container then get the engine running to clear any air out of the system then leave it overnight or till you next start it. Then go from there
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