1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

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polbaeman
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:26 pm

rid54 wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:58 pm
polbaeman wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:34 pm
Thanks rid54 and dbd2. Fascinating stuff...... . And of course, no throttle until/if it starts. ...
I am a bit confused... Normally I'd recommend 2/3 to full throttle during the start and being prepard to "throttle back" to keep revs under 1000 RPM as the engine starts. If the throttle lever is in idle, the funcion of the cold-start mechanism may not be there at all. Unless DB has some special design of their inline pumps (and I am prepared to suffer corrective comments), the system relies on the throttle lever being out of idle, at least. The governor then will allow the metering rod to go into max injection position. The cold start device, when active, will allow the rod to go a little beyond full injection position, temporarily. As the engine revs up, the governor pulls back the metering rod until a stable speed is achieved. The cold start device then resets itself automatically, as the metering rod is withdrawn. If the throttle lever is at idle, the metering rod may not be able to do the full excursion and cold startup is made more difficult. Even if the metering rod goes into full injection position with engine at standstill, the governor may come into action and reduce injection at very low revs (cranking at near start-speed) if it (the lever) is in the idle position, and that doesn't help.
Just come back in. Tried it with the cold start pulled fully back until it clicked and the button stayed in. Then pumped a couple of times on the lift pump. So far so good. Then left the throttle in idle position. Heater plugs for 60 seconds and turned the engine. The first thing I notice is there's very little smoke from the exhaust which to my untrained eye says that it is possible there's not a lot of fuel entering the cylinders. Flattened the battery trying to start it. Smoke - what little there was of it - blueish grey. Got another battery (the one I usually use in parallel) clicked off the cold start, heater plugs and 3/4 throttle. Turned it over. Plenty of blueish smoke and then after a few seconds put the throttle lever into idle position. It started. As I've dosed it with injector and fuel system cleaner I have let it run fast for a couple of hours. Tommorrow, my trusted Christmas Elf Donald comes up to give me a hand with firewood and whatever. I'm going to get him to put his finger on the cold start button and hold it in manually until it starts. I seem to recall having done this some years ago in cold weather and it started. I must say that the cut off/cold start lever is a little wobbly, but with a but of coaxing I can get it to stay in and get the cold start button in. It's a struggle with being connected to the cut off cable; silly design. Looking at the pump which is a CAV minimec P5674, there doesn't appear to have been any tampering with it. The original wire and seal are still intact. I must say it is one he** of a job trying to get the lever back and the button to stay in. Wear and tear or something more?

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rid54
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by rid54 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:44 am

I actually read through this whole thread yesterday. I am not sure that I absorbed everything, but generally speaking there is a lot of info and lots of good advice from many parties. One thing that I thought stands out, is that there is an element of uncertainty here. Sometimes it starts, sometimes it doesn't. I will now try out a way of describing the problem and breaking it down into details. Bear with me...

A Diesel needs air, heat and fuel to start and run.
1. Air: Not a problem unless there is an obstruction in the intake airways, but that can be left out of the story at this point

2. Heat: Compression heat... Low compression may contribute to difficult starting. If I remember correctly, you did a compression test and most of the cylinders were OK. It is improbable, that low compression should cause intermittent starting problems. It is also improbable, that low pressure in one or two cylinders out of six should prevent starting. I'd bet that a six cylinder engine could start and run on three active cylinders.

3. Fuel: Fuel delivery is crucial. There are three important factors, in my opinion. The amount, the distribution (injectors) and the timing. Looking into these factors one by one we'll get:

Amount: Generally speaking, cold diesels require much fuel to start up reasonably well. That is why the recommendation is to use a throttle lever setting that is at 50% or more. Due to the function of the regulator, the pump will then be at max delivery. The cold start device on inline pumps will allow even greater delivery during cranking, with the aim of further easing the startup. If the pump metering system is not working as it should, starting can be affected. This sort of problem has impact on all cylinders.

Distribution: The injectors are important. A bad injector may upset the combustion in its cylinder. On a six-cylinder engine, it seems improbable that injector trouble should prevent start, as it would be bad luck indeed to have all six injectors acting up at the same time. This type of problem is not "global" to the engine, it is individual, to the cylinder in which the injector sits. Again; one or two bad injectors shouldn't prevent start.

Timing: If the timing has slipped for some reason, starting may be affected. This is a problem that will have impact on all cylinders.

In my opinion, one should look at problems that are "global", that is, those that are not connected with individual cylinders. Timing is one, the other is fuel amount.

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rid54
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by rid54 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:06 am

Further on fuel amount:
The delivery volume for each cylinder is determined by the setting of the high pressure pumping elements. Often they are controlled by means of a "metering rod" that in turn is under the influence of the centrifugal governor. The throttle lever acts on the governor to "request" a certain engine speed. The governor then slips the metering rod into max delivery and the engine speeds up. As the requested speed is reached, the governor pulls back the metering rod and the speed stabilises. If the engine is forced to work harder (e.g. on an uphill slope), the speed is maintained as the governor adjusts the metering rod to increase fuel delivery. This happens without driver intervention (no adjustment of the throttle lever is needed). Once the metering rod hits the max delivery stop, there is no more power to get out of the engine (no normal way); adjusting the throttle makes no difference.

So, as starting a cold diesel reqires much fuel to be injected, the throttle lever should be in a power position (off idle, at least). If the injector pump and the governor are both OK, the metering rod will be at max delivery position, and if the cold start is engaged, it will be at a position slightly beyond max. The system described is not all that complex, but there are mechanical parts and springs that may wear and/or break. The injection pump (normally) has at least two controls, the stop-run lever, and the speed setting lever. The free movement of these levers should be ascertained. The stop lever normally acts on the metering rod, pulling it into null delivery position. If it cannot get fully into the run position, fuel delivery may be affected.

The injection pump cannot work properly if there is too low input pressure from the lift pump. As the high pressure pumping elements have no proper capability for suction, the filling of the elements, prior to injection, require the fuel to be delivered at some pressure to the injection pump. The lift pump and filters need to be in good condition.

All the text above is based on general knowledge of inline injection pumps. Even if DB has designed pumps that differ from the other big makers (Bosch for example), the system components or their functions, are very probably common to many makes of pumps.

polbaeman
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:06 pm

Thanks rid54, I do actually understand what you are saying. The more problems I have, the more I look into it and the better I understand it; because at this juncture, simply, I have to. Last night was cold here in Scotland. I was aorund -3 with a heavy frost that never bodes well for the Case. Around 0830hrs it was time for its daily start up routine and just before dawn; the coldest part of the night. This time I had my Muskateer Donald to press buttons. He fully depressed the cold start button with instructions that it wasn't to be released until it had started. Having failed previously, I didn't pull the lever back to engage the cold start. It's very awkward and I'm not quite sure it's functioning properly (only that it didn't start the engine last time I tried it). I primed the lift pump, gave it 60 - 70 seconds of heater plugs. The battery is about 3 weeks old and heavy duty. Rightly or wrongly, I gave it full throttle. Turning over was as per normal and there was plenty of blue smoke for the first 30 seconds followed by blue and black smoke for about 90 seconds without the slightest hint that it wanted to start. A long time for the starter, I know. Sometimes it almost starts, runs a few seconds and then cuts out, by which time the battery is usually low. The second battery was deployed and again I tried it but without the cold start button. The same result. Both batteries are now being charged and tommorrow I'll be putting them back in parallel as they have been for some time prior to this. The pump has fresh oil and obviously sends plenty of fuel to the cylinders. My next task must be to double check the timing. This is driving me crazy. I'm also considering finding a better quality pressure guage to re-check the last diagnosis I had on the compression. The guy who did it with me (for which I am eternaly grateful) has since voiced quiet misgivings about oriental equipment, in particular some of his metering equipment and - you guessed it - his compression tester. :|

polbaeman
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:15 pm

Gordon came down today and we tried the compression tester on my Ford Type 13 digger I'm testing the injectors on. About 150 hours ago, after a loud bang and a piston through the side of the liner and a broken valve that dropped into the bore, I stripped the engine down, new liners, pistons, rings, valves etc...etc so I know it's good. The guage showed A1 on all three cylinders which is what I knew and expected, so it looks like it's accurate, despite the fact it's oriental and cheap.

Gard
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by Gard » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:46 pm

Is there any accepted way to check that the lift pump and filters are working properly, supplying the proper pressure? For example on fuel injection cars there is a test point where you attach a pressure gauge to the common rail. I wonder measuring pressure at the bleed fitting at the filter output or on pump? My own experience has been to blow out the fuel line from lift pump back thru tank then bleed the system at each point and go back and bleed it again until it starts.

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rid54
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by rid54 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:11 pm

The fuel line to the injector pump (from the filters) should be a possible place to measure the feed pressure. This pressure is fairly low and it is provided by the spring in the feed (lift) pump. If the lift pump is in good condition (no damage to the diaphragm or spring, valves working OK and tight, pushrod from camshaft excenter not worn etc) the pressure should be sufficient. In my DB 880 there is, in the lift pump, a fine mesh metal net filter that was clogged and caused problems with fuel flow, so there are a few things to check.

TEZB
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by TEZB » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:51 pm

will it start ok with easy start?, look's as if you are running out of option's

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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by admin » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:37 pm

The last post has been removed on how to administer ether cold start spray, it is dangerous to try as this method does result in damage to pistons and definitely not the manufacturers recommended method of application.

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GeoffDEAL
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by GeoffDEAL » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:12 pm

Consider my hand smacked it is up to each person how and what they do to start tractors, however an electric fuel pump between tank and lift pump has worked for myself and others, by passes worn pump--worn pump pushrod--worn cam shaft and gives a constant fuel supply, tractor needs throttle to start with cold start button in would be hard to start on idle setting just back off when it starts.

Wheelie
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by Wheelie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:26 pm

Maybe a dodgy head gasket,they have caused some funny problems!

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GeoffDEAL
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by GeoffDEAL » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:39 pm

Hi polbaeman i was checking comments, at 0 or -3 degrees you would have to be very lucky to get a start without engine heating or the black art of using just enought starting fluid to start it. At those temperatures and we do get them in NZ at times my 1690 which is now a good starter would not start without assistance this is normal and to expected in cold conditions.

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skyrydr2
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by skyrydr2 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:23 am

The tractor is old and has been put away wet, If its that reluctant to start normally hit it with the ether! Just be sure its turning before spraying at the air intake.
If it were a new or good fresh engine I would not spray it, but seeing its old and questionable...
ABSOLUTELY PUT AN ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP ON IT! One that can pump at least 5 -15 psi and has 1-3 gpm. That will stop any fuel delivery issues as long as the tank is clean and full and the filters are good! And it will help find any leaking delivery pipes and connections!
And get a heating source of some kind for the engine, those are cold temps for a diesel to especially one that's tired. I use a Kat's coolant heater in the heater core circuit and it works good and I get heat in the cab in short fashion.
Kat's 13150 1500 Watt Aluminum Circulating Tank Heater is what I use.

And just for the record: my DB 950 never started with out a sniff of ether when cold and it never hurt that engine! YOU JUST CAN'T SPRAY IT BEFORE CRANKING AND USE IT SPARINGLY! Never keep spaying it to keep the engine going either! That WILL RUIN THE PISTONS AND RINGS!.
JD came from the factory with ether injection so I don't think it will hurt your old rig if it gets whiffed a tiny bit to get the fire going.

polbaeman
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:53 pm

Gard wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:46 pm
Is there any accepted way to check that the lift pump and filters are working properly, supplying the proper pressure? For example on fuel injection cars there is a test point where you attach a pressure gauge to the common rail. I wonder measuring pressure at the bleed fitting at the filter output or on pump? My own experience has been to blow out the fuel line from lift pump back thru tank then bleed the system at each point and go back and bleed it again until it starts.
Hi Gard, the pump isn't that old and seems to work okay. When you prime the filters manually, there's sufficient fuel pumped through, so I don't think it's that.

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GeoffDEAL
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Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by GeoffDEAL » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:27 pm

Hi polbaeman thats what i thought when having fuel problems with my pump BUT the hand priming stroke is different to what the motor stroke is due to wear on push rod and cam and my pump was hardly operating at all.

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