1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

The place to discuss all matters relating to David Brown Tractors. You will need to register your user name before you can post. If you have already registered could you please make sure that your location details have been completed. Go to My Account in the Main Menu on the left, and then go into "Edit Your Information" and complete your location details. Give the Country (and State/Province if you wish) if outside the U.K. County if within the U.K. Location details helps other members if you need spares, technical advice, or the nearest practical help.

DISCLAIMER -

David Brown Tractor Club Ltd
Forum/website Disclaimer

1. This [forum/website/chat room] and the advice and opinions expressed herein is not a solution for mechanical, electrical, valuations, other problems, breakdowns or issues experienced in relation to the vehicles referenced.

2. If reliance is thought to be placed on any of the information guidance or input provided such information will be expressly confirmed as appropriate to be relied upon.

3. In the absence of any such confirmation no reliance should be suggested or inferred.

4. Members must not disclose information to 3rd parties in anticipation that reliance will be given by non-members.

5. Non-members must not purport to give advice on behalf of David Brown Tractor Club.

6. If you or someone you know is experiencing difficulties or repeated breakdowns you must seek assistance for an appropriately qualified expert who holds themselves out as such.

7. Any comments are free of charge and made or posted on an ex gratia basis. No member or non-member may advertise their professional services

Any user inactive for more than 3 months will automatically be deactivated, please contact admin@dbtc.co.uk if you would like to be reactivated.

Please be aware that your user name and entered location can be seen by all members. We only store information you have entered which is your email address and username, your IP is also stored, we have no access to private passwords.

If you do not agree with your information being stored, please do not register an account, If you wish to unsubscribe at any time please email admin@dbtc.co.uk giving your username.

Amended 27/10/18

Moderators: Segrie61, admin

Locked
polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:55 pm

Hi out there, I eventually got over my flames plus smoke problem ( another story) I had with my Case 1594 Hydra and got it going (eventually) for a short period of time. Fitted a new starting heater filament but it still won't fire up despite it popping and giving off loads of pre-heated vapour. Loads of smoke, and almost starts then dies. Even tried a blow torch up the housing at the head for the air intake, but once again it won't start. The smoke shows there's loads of fuel there, and maybe too much fuel - I don't know. Someone said there's a heater plug on them but everything I've read says there isn't; anyone heard of this? From what I have read they have a reputation for being bad starters. Is this true? I recently replaced the lift pump but this hasn't made any difference. Any suggestions apart from a cutting torch?

User avatar
rid54
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:20 am
Location: Vallentuna, Sweden

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by rid54 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:49 pm

Probably I will receive a number of comments regarding not knowing about this particular tractor, but very generally I will comment on this.

A diesel engine runs on fuel and air. During the start procedure, air is compressed into a very small space on top of the piston, and fuel is injected into the heated gas mixture. The fuel ignites (due to the heat) and creates a working pressure, that drives the engine. Starting is no different from running, it is the same situation.

If flames etc are present, there is a problem with fuel dispersion in the combustion chamber, or there is an abundance of lube oil in the cylinders.

A no-start situation is almost always a situation where there is no fuel or no compression (no heat).

Erik Fellenz
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:50 pm
Location: United States

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by Erik Fellenz » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:32 am

You can install a block heater by removing a freeze plug. I have a heater on my 1594 on the injection pump side of the engine towards the rear. You can also get coolant heaters that are installed/spliced into the radiator hose (usually lower hose).

Did you fully prime/bleed the fueling system after you replaced the lift pump? Did it start okay before you replaced the pump? If you're sure the fuel is good you likely have low compression.

User avatar
skyrydr2
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:27 am
Location: USA, Massachusetts

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by skyrydr2 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:43 am

Mine had the same hard starting issue but would always eventually start. It now seems a lot better but not perfect all the time. I am going to install a new electric fuel pump shortly and see if that makes it better.
One of the best things I ever did was to replace the filter assembly with a new Ford style double element housing with water separator! It now holds fuel in the system longer.
Be sure you prime it before starting! It will help the could start and help feed the thermo-start units.
And THE MOST IMPORTANT THING OF ALL!
GOOD CRANKING SPEED! If it turns over hard your going to fight it to your death! Block heater will help this immensely!
If when running it smokes badly...whitish grayish smoke with a hint of blue in it.. it needs a ring job!
I wish the performance aftermarket had pistons for these engines... but they don't.. this is a weakness of the DB engines... mostly from stuck or broken rings . Never seen this in a Cummins or Isuzu . Only blown head gaskets on Cummins and completely worn out 100,000 hour Isuzus.'
DBs only 3-4k and something wrong with compression... BUT every single DB I saw with this issue was abused and had no maintenance to speak of!

User avatar
ollek
Posts: 3773
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:20 pm
Location: South West Finland

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by ollek » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:58 am

A 1594 have low compression pistons (same as in the turbo charge engine in the 1694), creating less heat during starting. You need two Thermostart units, and you have to keep the key in pre heat position for at least 30 seconds before you try to start. Do NOT keep the throttle at more than 1/4 to 1/2 of full throttle, or you will over fuel the engine. Pump on the hand pump before you clime onto the tractor. A block heater will be a great help, we use two block heaters where I live. The battery must be in good condition and all cables and connecting points must be spot on. A low cranking speed will make it almost impossible to start the engine.
Last edited by ollek on Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:05 am

Thanks rid54, I appreciate your comments and it's always good sometimes to come down to earth and start with the basics; it's never lost. If I may point out however, whilst I did have that problem some time ago, it has given way to just the smoke. The confusing thing is that's once it's running - which is a rarity these days - there's little if any excess smoke from the exhaust. I don't want to think rings, but I may have to.

polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:10 am

Thank you Erik, I've never heard of the heating items you mention! You learn every day. Probably like where you live we have quite low temperatures here sometimes, but my problems were also whilst the temp was hitting the 80's in july and august. I really will consider heater elements. A new one that nobody I've spoken to in the past 24hrs has heard of. The power of forums sometimes.

polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:12 am

........sorry, yes I did bleed the entire system. That's something I sometimes do just as a matter of course, so the issue of air in the system doesn't come into it - I think. Never say never.

polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:21 am

Thanks skyryder2, it looks like you've had the same disease as me. Yes, I've already replaced the filter system with the double filter. I also have a good crank speed and last year bought a new starter motor for it. Beforehand I spoke to the suppliers and they confirmed that it would be okay for a limited stretch to use 24v, so I doubled up on the batteries and whacked 24 through it - but still no start as you would expect, then it would start, then the day after it wouldn't, then it would, then etc..etc..if you get the drift. I also always manually hand pump the lift pump as sometimes you get a little leak past, not a lot, but I want it to be well and truly primed before I start cranking. Once it starts it's okay and there's no excess smoke, but leave it stopped for a couple of hours, and you really have to give it some crank to start it, but no excess smoke once it's warm. Confusing. The lift pump, by the way, was replaced last year.

polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:28 am

Hi Ollek,

When you talk about pre heat I take it you mean the element that glows and gives off fuel vapour? When I first got the tractor I was told that there were no heater plugs in it apart from that element. I have wired the element up directly and put a button on the side of the console so that I can control it manually. Yes, that rings a bell about 1/4 throttle. I find it starts better than full throttle. There's also an excess fuel button on the 'kill' lever on the side of the fuel pump and I usually get my mate Donald to hold that in. Would that give too much fuel? Looks like a block heater is the answer. Are they difficult to fit?

User avatar
ollek
Posts: 3773
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:20 pm
Location: South West Finland

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by ollek » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:05 pm

I would not recommend to use the excessive fuel button on the injection pump. A new block heater us supplied with fitting instructions. The element in a Thermostart glows, and this ignites the fuel dripping down at the spiral when the valve in the Thermostat has opened. It takes from 10 to 20 seconds for the valve to open. This creates a flame in the inlet manifold that heats the air. The flame has to be burning at least 15 seconds for the heat to be high enough. Look at your watch when you activate the Thermostart, you have to keep your button pressed for 30 to 45 seconds.

User avatar
rid54
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:20 am
Location: Vallentuna, Sweden

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by rid54 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:21 pm

The amount of smoke issued during start is not necessarily a reliable way to judge if there is enough fuel being delivered. Too much fuel is not really a concern as diesels are regulated only through fuel amount; there is always enough air in the combustion chamber to allow ignition to start.

When running, does the engine have reasonable power? Any kind of smoke when working hard? If this problem is about piston rings, one would expect heavy blue/gray smoke when revving the engine after a period of idling.

User avatar
ollek
Posts: 3773
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:20 pm
Location: South West Finland

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by ollek » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:12 pm

rid54, can you then explain why a cold engine will smoke heavily, without a rise in revolutions when you throttle up, but the engine will run much better when the throttle is set to lover revs for a few minutes, as the engine warms up? The air temperature is not high enough on top of the piston during start up in low ambient temperature. That is why diesel engines have different pre-heat systems.

User avatar
rid54
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:20 am
Location: Vallentuna, Sweden

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by rid54 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:37 pm

I was merely referring to the diesel principle. The fuel ignites as it is injected into the cylinder. There is no metering of the air (no throttle (i.e. no butterfly valve to restrict air flow)). If all the air (oxygen) is actually consumed by the fuel, the engine will issue smoke, often black, due to incomplete combustion. But there will always be ignition, in contrast to the situation in engines for carburetted fuels (petrol, paraffin), where the mixture may be unwilling to ignite at all if there is too much of either air or fuel.

A cold diesel will run better at lower revs due to the combustion being slower in a cold cylinder. Pouring in more fuel gives little more power, but considerably more smoke due to the fact that not all the fuel will have time to "burn" before the power stroke is done and the exhaust valve opens.

polbaeman
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: 1594 Hydra starting problems - smoke but no fire.

Post by polbaeman » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:09 pm

Hi Ollek and the gang. First, yes I do activate the heater fillament for at least a minute until I hear the fuel popping, but that doesn't work in getting the engine to start. I have been looking on line for block heaters and they appear to be pretty thin on the ground in the UK. Tommorrow I'll ring a guy who's a Case dealer and ask him about one. I don't suppose there's anyone out there who has one for sale? I'm reading with interest the discussion on diesel basics and find it both fascinating and helpful. If I may just interject; when I start the engine there's plenty of black and blue smoke around, but once I start to give it some revs, it clears reasonably quickly within about 30 seconds and thereafter there's hardly any smoke at all. The engine, once warm, runs almost smoke free and the performance is good from the outset. So I'm still no closer to solving the starting problem...

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: georgeh and 9 guests