1212 Front Loaders.

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Scooby
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:16 pm
Location: Warwickshire

Re: 1212 Front Loaders.

Post by Scooby » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:54 am

bedwards1966 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:57 pm
I have never driven a hydrashift.

But although I like the idea very much and would love to own one from the description of how it drives and how it should be driven if you don't want to spend a fortune rebuilding it it's clearly a bad choice for loader work. It sounds like it's going to be very slow and tedious, having to use slow gear one EVERY time you set off or change direction then change up, completely impractical for most loader work.
Spot on there but in all the years and all the HS tractors I have owned I have never had to rebuild one (fingers crossed :D ) The only time I have had to take one apart was when one of my 1212 tractors had about 9000 hours on it and the seals in the packs had hardened and it wasn't as sharp on the change up as it should have been.

But before anyone really slags off HS let's look at the alternative at the time. Jerkomatic from Ford or monkey power from MF. In the latter instance you had to change up to High MP for engine braking. i.e. you had to go up a gear. Who the Hell thought that one up ?
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Three is twee, four does snore, but 6 just clicks........Scooby

KevinC
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Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: 1212 Front Loaders.

Post by KevinC » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:06 am

Not driven a hydra shift but some experience with MF and you are right they are a right royal pain in the butt. Changing up to slow down, really. People wax lyrical about how wonderfully they are, not if you have to spend a day working them.

Scooby
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:16 pm
Location: Warwickshire

Re: 1212 Front Loaders.

Post by Scooby » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:38 am

KevinC wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:06 am
Not driven a hydra shift but some experience with MF and you are right they are a right royal pain in the butt. Changing up to slow down, really. People wax lyrical about how wonderfully they are, not if you have to spend a day working them.
Yes, and because I was close to the MF Training School and Field Test I used to be lent tractors to put some hours on them. And I became good friends with one of the Field Test engineers and he always said that the monkey power could have been re-designed so that you got engine braking in low instead of high and it wouldn't have needed much modification. Just simple jobs like flat rolling on banks meant that you had to use monkey power in high or else you got to the bottom of the bank faster than intended. :roll:
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Three is twee, four does snore, but 6 just clicks........Scooby

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bedwards1966
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Location: North Yorkshire

Re: 1212 Front Loaders.

Post by bedwards1966 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:26 pm

Scooby wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:54 am
bedwards1966 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:57 pm
I have never driven a hydrashift.

But although I like the idea very much and would love to own one from the description of how it drives and how it should be driven if you don't want to spend a fortune rebuilding it it's clearly a bad choice for loader work. It sounds like it's going to be very slow and tedious, having to use slow gear one EVERY time you set off or change direction then change up, completely impractical for most loader work.
Spot on there but in all the years and all the HS tractors I have owned I have never had to rebuild one (fingers crossed :D ) The only time I have had to take one apart was when one of my 1212 tractors had about 9000 hours on it and the seals in the packs had hardened and it wasn't as sharp on the change up as it should have been.

But before anyone really slags off HS let's look at the alternative at the time. Jerkomatic from Ford or monkey power from MF. In the latter instance you had to change up to High MP for engine braking. i.e. you had to go up a gear. Who the Hell thought that one up ?
I'm not knocking the HS system as such, from what I have heard they sound brilliant and like I say I would like a tractor with one. And it certainly sounds very good for its day as well, like their hydraulics DB really did seem to be ahead of the game.

I also believe the HS system is very reliable when driven correctly, though I know a few stockmen who would be too idle to change up the gears properly and would leave it in their desired gear then wonder why it was broken, but really that's the fault of the operators not the tractor. They bust regular clutches and gearboxes on a regular basis, and it's therefor fair to say that it's not possible to find a machine that's truly safe from their abuse.

I'm sure a HS could be just as reliable on a loader as any gearbox if driven correctly, but from what I read it would be too tedious and therefor not sensible for real work.

Scooby
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Location: Warwickshire

Re: 1212 Front Loaders.

Post by Scooby » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:19 am

One thing that needs repeating - regularly, is the need for cleanliness when dealing with the transmission oil on HS or in fact any Selectamatic tractor. How often do we see DB tractors on eBay and the like with the gear lever shrouds either broken up or missing altogether ? That is just encouraging rubbish into the system. And there were a couple of photos. on here recently showing an external oil pipe. But not covered and full of crap.

How many people keep all external oil pipe ends covered all the time ? How many people wipe both male and female ends prior to connecting pipes up to the tractor ?

The Selectamatic hydraulic system was/is so good because of the fine tolerances employed in it's design. While it's true that there are multiple filtration systems in place it is only asking for trouble if basic rules are ignored.

For those who are unaware of the situation when the Selectamatic system was introduced in 1965 without doubt all other main agricultural tractor manufacturers at the time employed quite basic engineering to get a system that gave draft and position control. Yes, it all worked to a degree but none were anywhere near as responsive and precise as DBs were. Massey came up with Pressure Control for taking the weight off a trailed machine/trailer but that was nowhere near as effective as DBs TCU. DB Selectamatics were the best in their day - by miles. It is sheer stupidity not to keep it all clean.
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Three is twee, four does snore, but 6 just clicks........Scooby

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db2d
Posts: 1885
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Location: Monmouthshire

Re: 1212 Front Loaders.

Post by db2d » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:20 pm

DB were the first to utilise a trailer weight transfer system.

Scooby
Posts: 3864
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:16 pm
Location: Warwickshire

Re: 1212 Front Loaders.

Post by Scooby » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:21 pm

..
TCU Trailer attachment001.jpg
TCU Trailer attachment001.jpg (128.55 KiB) Viewed 452 times
ImageImage


Three is twee, four does snore, but 6 just clicks........Scooby

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bedwards1966
Posts: 810
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Location: North Yorkshire

Re: 1212 Front Loaders.

Post by bedwards1966 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:57 pm

Scooby wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:19 am
One thing that needs repeating - regularly, is the need for cleanliness when dealing with the transmission oil on HS or in fact any Selectamatic tractor. How often do we see DB tractors on eBay and the like with the gear lever shrouds either broken up or missing altogether ? That is just encouraging rubbish into the system. And there were a couple of photos. on here recently showing an external oil pipe. But not covered and full of crap.

How many people keep all external oil pipe ends covered all the time ? How many people wipe both male and female ends prior to connecting pipes up to the tractor ?

The Selectamatic hydraulic system was/is so good because of the fine tolerances employed in it's design. While it's true that there are multiple filtration systems in place it is only asking for trouble if basic rules are ignored.

For those who are unaware of the situation when the Selectamatic system was introduced in 1965 without doubt all other main agricultural tractor manufacturers at the time employed quite basic engineering to get a system that gave draft and position control. Yes, it all worked to a degree but none were anywhere near as responsive and precise as DBs were. Massey came up with Pressure Control for taking the weight off a trailed machine/trailer but that was nowhere near as effective as DBs TCU. DB Selectamatics were the best in their day - by miles. It is sheer stupidity not to keep it all clean.
As a farm mechanic I see it all the time.
Oils not changed, filters not changed. Wrong oils used through ignorance or not being bothered to stock the correct oil for each machine - I work for a bright spark who thinks that one drum of STOU should be fine for everything on the farm - different makes of tractors, cars, pickups, chainsaws, diffs/hubs etc.
Oil fittings not wiped off, caps not replaced. Gear lever gaiters.
Everything gets abused both new and old, and at some point down the line they're moaning because things don't work properly - but they're incapable of accepting why...

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Lofty
Posts: 190
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Location: South Australia

Re: 1212 Front Loaders.

Post by Lofty » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:11 am

db2d wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:20 pm
DB were the first to utilise a trailer weight transfer system.
So this would work by lifting or lowering the hitch? Could someone please elaborate?

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ollek
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Location: South West Finland

Re: 1212 Front Loaders.

Post by ollek » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:44 am

As the advert says. "TCU trailer attachment". A device that connects the lower links to the trailer boom. The easy way is to have a linkage drawbar connected to the lower links (ref 10 in the following link), and placing the drawbar below the trailer boom. https://partstore.caseih.com/us/parts-s ... 0ar1038747 Works with TCU pressure, lifting the trailer front end and transferring weight to the tractor rear wheels.

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